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Peter Forrester
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6/10/2003
20:51:36
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 Subject: Catholic Political Pessimism
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In another subject area, I suggested the following:
"Christianity, neither Catholic nor Protestant, will overthrow IN A POLITICAL WAY the frantic, furious law-hating spirit which dominates us. However, that doesn't mean the "great problems of the West" aren't fundamentally religious. Perhaps the history of modernity (from Luther to Lenin) has been the history of apostasy, of a great, deliberate rebellion against God and His Church. And perhaps the Church will even suffer crucifixion and an apparent death in the manner of her namesake. That would only confirm the Church's teaching about itself. What's happening to the Catholic Church is merely a political failure; according to her own centuries-old teaching it's the fulfillment (albeit painful) of prophecy."
Many of you will find those ideas quite familiar as they're becoming increasingly widespread since they help make sense of the current world-situation.
I'm interested in unpacking those ideas with others among you. Anybody who could bring de Maistre, Donoso Cortes, Carl Schmitt into the conversation would be much appreciated.
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Peter Forrester
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6/10/2003
20:52:51
| RE: Catholic Political Pessimism
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NB: Christianity, neither Catholic nor Protestant, will NOT overthrow IN A POLITICAL WAY...
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Joseph
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7/20/2003
14:24:40
| RE: Catholic Political Pessimism
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I have said this before, about Mexico as well as the United States, and I am sure many other countries fit the same bill. Political changes will be rather worthless and/or impossible without a fundamental (religious) change in the attitudes of the people. The entire attitude, from Luther to the French Revolution, that "whatever I want is what is right" or that "I can make up my own principles of right & wrong", must be looked at honestly and tossed out.
I hope this will soon happen because, the liberal arguments are already begining to fall in on themselves. (z.b. if its allright to be gay, why not a polygamist or adulterer usw...) Right and wrong have become so objective that people are finding it harder to make an argument for any kind of good behavior at all. The argument for abortion can be carried to, "I think its wrong to murder someone but that doesn't give me the right to force someone else to not murder if they do not feel it to be wrong". We must have some absolutes and I think people are slowly starting to realize this, though it may still be some way off. What Christianity and the Church must focus on is setting an impeccable example and to practice what they preach.
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Peter Forrester
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7/30/2003
21:48:42
| RE: Catholic Political Pessimism
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I share your gut reaction to our situation, but your reasons for hope in politics mystify me.
It may be true that "We must have some absolutes" but just because "people are finding it harder to make an argument for any kind of good behavior at all" doesn't mean that the absolutes they'll embrace are the ones which previously dominated European spiritual life. People, it seems to me, are in fact embracing absolutes, albeit new ones. Specifically I have in mind the so-called "right to privacy" and self-determination which incidentally was used by the Court to defend both the right to abortion and to sodomy, the examples of vicious behavior you cited above.
The right and wrong of Christian morality seem essentially tied to the Christian Revelation and Church. Once people are free of either, Christian morality looks desicated and desicating. Natural Law isn't persuasive to unbelievers and is impotent in face of an unbelieving Constitution.
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Joseph
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7/30/2003
22:41:45
| RE: Catholic Political Pessimism
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My reason for hope (though remember I said it may be some time off) is that, once you hit bottom, there is nowhere to go but up. When we have a population of aged invalids, with not enough youth to support them & pay social security, we will be forced to realize how absurd things like abortion and contraception are. Once diseases start killing sexual deviants en masse in this country people will be forced to realize how much better the traditional way was. When all the screwing around with gender roles and the traditional family leads to a sex war and tons of miserable people, there will be a change.
These cycles have happened before, and I'm sure they will keep on happening until Jesus comes home, which is the ultimate reason for hope. One way or another, the good will prevail.
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