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Traditionalist Conservatism Forum > Traditionalist Conservatism > Problems with representative government |
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JasonEubanks Registered User (4/5/01 4:27 am) Reply |
Problems with representative government I think the current thinking in representative government is part of the problem. It's not that people shouldn't have a say in their government, but this notion that people should be able to effect change in national governmental principles is what leads to secularism in the first place. Federalism is good as long as the boundries of each state are not arbitrary. For example, I doubt that people in upstate New York have much in common with people in NYC. Yet, NYC moral standards totally override the ones Upstate in NY law. I think that the larger the hierarchy governed, the less voice people should have and the more government should rely on traditions and principles. It would reduce pandering to small but militant minorities and preserve distinct traditions at the local level. Maybe force the government to act 100% according to tradition and state governments to act 50/50 and small local governments could act any way they wanted. Any ideas? Edited by: JasonEubanks at: 4/5/01 5:51:26 pm |
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William Wleklinski Registered User (4/7/01 11:42 am) Reply |
Problems with Representative Government I think of all the (wrong-headed, in my view) stress on localism in paleoconservative publications of quality. I live in an American town where the municipal authorities are far to the left of the state and federal government. I see no salvation in federalism or localism alone. WW Edited by: William Wleklinski at: 4/7/01 11:57:24 am |
JimKalb  ezOP (4/8/01 12:17 pm) Reply 
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Re: Problems with Representative Government I agree that federalism and localism by themselves are not an answer but they're helpful. They tend to favor concrete experience and personal connections over universal rationalizing institutions, and today I think that's all to the good. Jim Kalb |
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JasonEubanks Registered User (4/8/01 3:32 pm) Reply |
Re: Problems with Representative Government I was speaking primarily from an agrarian point of view. I'm from rural Oklahoma and almost all the small local governments here are right-leaning populist. Even the university I attend is faily conservative as far as educational institutions go, probably because it is geared toward agriculture and engineering (the classical A&M college.) I think I failed to articulate my position very well. I don't think that centralized government is the necessarily the problem . . . it's centralized government trying to circumvent informal social constructs that is the problem. I think that federalism and localism could be used to potent effect by weakening a central government of this bent. Since my conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy, I've also been rethinking old ideas about State Church and Monarchy that the Founding Fathers despised. Yes, both the Byzantine Emperor and Russian Tsar both fell thanks, in some part at least, to hedonism amongst the aristocracy. Yes, both forms of government were more or less authoritarian. Whatever the faults, I think with some amount of overhaul, that Monarchism may be good in areas with strong monarchial traditions exist (definately not the US). I think I'll read some of Solzhenitsyn's later works for some ideas at least. |
Manawyddan  Registered User (4/14/01 1:29 am) Reply 
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Re: Problems with Representative Government Since localism entails the ability of people to live as they choose, some localities will emerge with a leftist bent, just as some localities will take on a rightist bent. Given my skepticism of universal solutions, I see localism as an effective way to allow people the greatest possible choice of ways to live. And I see that as the only (certainly the only practicable) way for traditions to coexist, and for traditionalists to avoid getting overwhelmed by people pursuing innovation. |
 JimKalb ezOP (4/14/01 6:58 am) Reply ezSupporter
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Re: Problems with Representative Government I'm not sure that leftist localism is really a possibility in the long run. Leftist "liberty" tends to mean freedom from particular ties, and "equality" equality in opposition to the distinctions people make in day-to-day life. It follows that the Left relies at least in concept on universal rationalizing institutions that trump everything particular and local. Jim Kalb |
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William Wleklinski Registered User (4/16/01 3:34 pm) Reply |
Re: Problems with Representative Government Let me put the question in a primitive way. If a traditionalist finds himself living in Berkeley or Madison or Austin or Evanston, what promise will localism ever hold? I know, we can always move to another town. But if the culture of the local institutions (e.g., universities) does not change, the social settings will be hostile to tradition for local reasons. WW |
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JimKalb ezOP (4/16/01 4:09 pm) Reply ezSupporter
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Re: Problems with Representative Government Huge left-leaning universities exist because of taxes and the demand for experts and for trained and graded personnel to man large bureaucracies. They favor the expansion of the rationalizing institutions of the activist state, since that what supports their existence and prosperity. In short, Berkeley, Madison, Austin and Evanston wouldn't be what they are if localism were stronger. Jim Kalb |
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William Wleklinski Registered User (4/20/01 11:03 am) Reply |
Re: Problems with Representative Government Admittedly I did tie my examples to towns with large universities, all but one public. But I think contrary examples of what I'm referring to could be found. I would think of Oak Park, Illinois. David Brooks, in his Bobos book, writes of his "Latte Towns", the cultural liberalism of which can't all be attributed to tax-supported state or even privately-funded corporate bureaucracies. Also, it would seem to me that centralized "big government" is not in itself inconsistent with traditional societies, and I would seek examples in some continental, European, civil law countries of the past. I wouldn't mind being convinced otherwise, but I'm not persuaded that American society would be much better morally, socially, or culturally if we really were governed by municipalities and counties rather than by states and the Federal Government. To me, being a traditionalist conservative in contemporary America is somewhat akin to being a member of a Resistance. We don't have to be as secretive as the French in 1943, and we won't be bombing railroad stations, but we want to survive and still resist the dominant culture. WW |
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JimKalb ezOP (4/21/01 6:34 am) Reply ezSupporter
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Re: Problems with Representative Government The culturally liberal places I can think of are tied to centralizing institutions and industries. Apart from the universities these include government and the other branches of the information and symbol-manipulating industries - publishing, advertising, law, the media generally. Those industries like centralization because the growth of universalizing abstract rationalizing institutions increases their importance. Big cities are usually more liberal than smaller and rural places. Again the reason I think is that personal ties and immediate contacts tend to be replaced by larger and more abstract relationships. I don't believe any of the European societies of the past had a public sector on remotely the scale of what we have now. More generally, centralized admistration by nature is at odds with tradition because it favors explicit rationalized standards applied uniformly. And apart from all the rest, if your views are not the dominant ones you'll probably do better in a system that has less machinery for enforcing the dominant views universally. Jim Kalb |
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oliverkronwell Registered User (4/6/02 9:40 pm) Reply |
Compromise? "And apart from all the rest, if your views are not the dominant ones you'll probably do better in a system that has less machinery for enforcing the dominant views universally." Aye, but a well-crafted campaign with an incisive message can, over time, change the dominant view and use the machinery to promote their views universally (or at least enough). Look at the platforms of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan for example. Alan Keyes even has his own opinion television show. FoxNews is giving CNN a run for its money, etc. The internet and the radio have been the vehicles the right has used to expand and organize--the television media is slowly becoming an other area in which the right can claim dominance. It may not be the traditional right but most of this right shares similar values--family, patriotism, religion, concern for the rise in the number of immigrants, and only falls short, perhaps, in that it is too free market and militaristic but remember the adage of Frederick the Great: "Petty geniuses attempt to hold everything; wise men hold fast to the key points. They parry great blows and scorn little accidents. There is an ancient apothegm: he who would preserve everything preserves nothing." The far left and the far right often show reflexive dislike to the vulgarities of capitalism--but is capitalism worse than modified socialism or an extremely unlikely return to feudalism? Is wealth the problem or is the use of that wealth problematic?Capitalism has shown itself able to produce large amounts of wealth. The state and non-state actors can use this money as a force for good, and the often do. Americans, on their own and across the board, according to a recent survey donate something around 4-5% of their income to private charities. Using simple mathematics 4-5% of trillions is much more than 10% of billions. A noble and trustworthy charitable organization will "earn" more donations in the long run--which is an example of how certain types of meritocracies are useful. As such, I suggest letting the far left pout in their ivory tower. They've had their chance in ruling and murdering the unwashed masses in the 20th Century. Edited by: oliverkronwell at: 4/6/02 10:25:49 pm |
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